Genpo Roshi; Big Mind or Big Pockets?

[shaman sun]

Cultural critique? Well, I guess integral has its own sub-culture in some respects, and I am going to have to agree with this Hardcore Zen's blog, "Big Fart: Circle." Apparently Genpo Roshi is hosting a 50,000 dollar retreat! I have always been suspicious of his high prices and relatively so-so seminars (From youtube, Integral Naked). I never quite got the appeal, or at least the reputation. Now it seems he is an even greater disappointment. Where does the line draw between making a living doing something you love, and taking advantage of your "spiritual" position? These sort of things have crippling effects on the reputation of these people, including Wilber. All in all, I am just feeling and expressing disappointment in them.

Honestly, Eckhart Tolle has been a better orator and more "integral," in that his method and way of speaking is very heart-to-heart--- so much so that Holosync recently created a workshop to study Tolle's writings (Including speakers Roshi and Wilber). It's ironic in a way. At any rate, this was just a way to vent and to open this up for everyone. I'm wondering what your impressions are too?

[yadid]

Hi shaman sun,‎
Here are my impressions:‎
‎1.‎ Brad (author of the mentioned article ‎"Big Fart Circle"‎) is a punk-‎bassist Zen monk. He's a cool, I mean way, way cool dude.‎

‎2.‎ Brad appeared on CNN. Yessir!!

‎3.‎ Brad could've made something like $10,000 (and this is back when ‎the green buck was worth something) leading a retreat on a luxury ‎cruise, but he turned it down (couldn't stomach ‎the thought of it). ‎


‎4.‎ Brad cannot picture himself charging money for people to be in his ‎presence. He thinks that would be arrogant. Brad abhors arrogance. ‎I guess arrogant is not cool.‎

‎5.‎ People get very excited and their eyes light up when Brad walks ‎into a room. It scares him. I guess if it delighted him, that would ‎make him an arrogant dude, and that, we already know, is ‎abhorrently uncool.‎


‎6.‎ Brad has never read any book by the Dalai Lama or paid much ‎attention to him (DL is a Buddhist monk, I'm a Buddhist monk, he's ‎been on CNN, I've been on CNN, what's the big deal?) but he ‎knows for a fact that there are a lot more laughs in his own book ‎than there are in any of the Dalai Lama's.‎

‎7.‎ Brad prays that he never become a famous spiritual celebrity. And ‎he puts it out for all to know. Oh brother... (did I mentioned that ‎I'm the humblest person I've ever met? Well, I really wasn't going to ‎mention it, I'm too modest, you see, but since you asked...) and so ‎on and so forth.‎

‎8.‎ Brad sold his Ferarri... ummm... no, that was some other monk.‎


‎9.‎ ‎ Brad is full of shit - i.e. himself. ‎

‎10.‎ But as my *grandpa - a brilliant farmer in his day - used to say: if ‎you want to cultivate something, start with a pile of shit. So I went ‎to Brad's blog and read his stuff. For someone whose webpage title ‎is "Sit Down and Shut Up" he sure likes to talk. And for the most ‎part, I found his pieces insightful, informative, entertaining and ‎enlightening – that is, until he puts on the "Guardian of the True ‎Buddhism" mantle and starts roasting all the 'fake teachers' and ‎‎'misguided seekers' out there. Then he becomes a tad preachy and ‎plain nuisance. ‎

‎*But then my grandma would say: first of all you need solid ‎ground. Otherwise a pile of shit will burn it, rather than make it ‎grow. And she was right. I find that when I'm well grounded, I can ‎take any shit, from Buddha to Brad, from St. Paul to Wilber and so ‎on, and it will help me grow. Otherwise, I often end up being burnt.‎

[shaman sun]

Hey yadid,

Thanks for replying. My impressions from Brad weren't exactly positive either, but either way I think he rose an interesting point about this particular guru. It seems he's doing it in his own, right -- maybe that's why he is reacting so strongly to others? I've tried to give his book a go while in the bookstore. Nothing particularly caught my attention. I think at some point, anyone and anything can be a teacher for you. After reading his blog, I learned the sadder truth about Genpo, but also about Brad.

[MetroPunk]

i couldn't agree more on both points sun...
thx!

[yadid]

You're welcome shaman.

About Genpo Roshi:‎

‎1.‎ According to Brad's article, Genpo charges 50,000 for an exclusive ‎‎5 days retreat with him. I think that charging (or asking for "a donation" ‎of) a premium price for spiritual guidance is a very responsible thing to ‎do. ‎

‎2.‎ Steep price ensures the seriousness and full attention and intention ‎of the buyer. Say you take a self improvement program, free of charge; you might skip some meetings, or come tired and doze a little ‎during them, and so on. But if you had to pay for it a hefty sum, money that ‎you might have otherwise used to go on a trip to India, or buy that ‎motorcycle you want to impress your girlfriend with, this means you're ‎really serious about this course, and it will probably show. And not just ‎you, but everyone else who attend this course is highly committed, so the ‎whole environment is more productive.‎

‎3.‎ It makes the provider accountable. If someone gives you ‎an MP3 player for $2 (or for free) and all you can hear are noises and ‎scratches, you can hardly complain about being swindled, can you? If ‎anything, you're an accomplice in cheating yourself, because you know that you have to give ‎value to get value, but you were looking for a shortcut. ‎

‎4.‎ On the other hand, when a surgeon performs a $100,000 operation, ‎although she may not be able to guaranty the outcome, she's held ‎accountable for the procedure. If she fucks up, she will pay a penalty, ‎financial, legal, professional or otherwise. The higher the asking price, ‎the higher the expectations and the accountability. ‎

5. With a spiritual teacher, you might not be able to sue or get ‎your money back, but your disappointment, disillusion or ‎mockery, would be the penalty, I think. I mean, look at ‎Genpo and you. He lost you before he even had a chance to ‎make you his student. That's the price he pays for the price he asks for.‎

6. There's this widespread perception that spirituality and money ‎are conflicting concepts, and that charging for spiritual guidance ‎is wrong (and therefore whoever charges for it is either a ‎schmuck or a fraud or both). As shaman sun puts it: it's "taking ‎advantage of their "spiritual" position". But what exactly is ‎‎'spiritual position'?‎

7. You don't expect a doctor, a prostitute, a pop star, a professional ‎athlete, a politician or a professor to give their services for free, ‎do you? Are spiritual services fundamentally different? Are the ‎people who provide them fundamentally different? How so? ‎

‎8.‎ Suppose Genpo's retreat was given free of charge. You ‎still had to buy a ticket from Denmark to the USA, pay for food ‎and accommodation, lose a week or so worth of salary, and so ‎on. It would cost you a good deal of money anyway. You'd still have to ‎make your calculations if you can afford it and is it worth it. But ‎when part of your costs is what's demanded form you by the teacher, ‎you add emotional and moral variables (your disappointment, ‎anger, disapproval, and so on) into the calculation and get distracted. ‎why?

[shaman sun]

Hey yadid,

Good points! I still think there could be more of a balance. You can put some amount of money into it, but 50,000? I understand charging, but to a reasonable price. I think one can go too far by charging far too high, even if it is based on good reasons... And that I think is my disappoint with him.

[didgeridoo]

Hello,

To me, the validity of criticisms of the personal appearance fee would depend on the circumstances. If the fee weren't this high then there would be a huge demand for personal appearances. To have any time to himself he would have to constantly refuse to speak to people or spend all of his time with others.

If the personal appearances are listed as the only way to enlightenment then that would seem to indicate a huckster. If there are other ways offered to get the information from Roshi then the fee is not for the wisdom, but for the personal attention. If one has gone to the trouble to make their information available in an affordable manner then the personal appearance shouldn't be needed and might even need to be discouraged. The price does this (at least it would for me!).

Roshi video and teaching is available in more affordable video and audio packages and has sessions even posted for free on YouTube. As long as he isn't saying that you "need" the $50,000 appearance to be enlightened then I don't see the scam. It could even be argued that these people are paying the cost so that the rest can study without having to be charged high fees.

[Steph]

Its great to give to your teacher! But ...

[a] The way I'd go about it is to get the technique down and then do my own short retreats. Build up a small practice like that. I can't imagine Genpo discouraging anyone who wanted to do that.You'r on yr own for the rest of your life after the retreat anyway.

[b] Maybe paying big money is encouraging the seeking mind to chase after something other than "Big Mind".
Glamour? Approbation? A pat on the back maybe? A pat on the back is always welcome though :)
Lx,
S.
___________________________________________________________________________
We need three hugs a day to stay sane, and six to make any progress at all (Virginia Satir).

[July]

this is really a very interesting topic and my opinion is a little divided on this: Jesus came into the world to save us from our human misery by giving their lives to save ours, this is not the real center of our life, "are not all these books and studies and analysis that many experts and famous celebrities do not help us to find the real reason for our lives, so if the son of God gave his life for us and never claimed to do so, because now there are so many dedicated individuals to help in some way to save our souls and books and studies and analysis are in the libraries at prices incríblemente high? But on the other hand I think: ... but these people also need something to live .. well okay but .... but if you say so spiritual to live in big mansions? bring some of these gains to help so many needy people in the world? That remains to be seen .......!!!!!!

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[Leslie]

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[Mike Redmer]

I think we might be missing the bigger issue here which is:

1. Genpo is providing a service through his teaching and guidance.
2. Some people think that this experience of his teaching is worth the money they voluntarily pay.
3. These people are not forced or coerced to go to his seminars.

What's the big deal? I think us poor people who can't afford to go to his seminars should be happy that there are people that can afford it. Perhaps as a result these people are getting profoundly changed (in my opinion you'd have to be for $50,000). This is good. And another point that has been brought up, is his core teachings are readily available in book form for about $15.00 or less, online for free, and through the ILP Kit on DVD. I can totally understand where your coming from as far as calling out people who are "taking advantage" of the spiritual life, but I really don't think this is the case in this situation.

I think the reasons we feel such conflicted emotions when it comes to the commodification of spirituality, is that we have not had a healthy relationship with either realm. No-Conscious Capitalism has been our way of life for the last several decades. Spirituality has been separated from "the world" since the Enlightenment. So a re-imagining of both realms and how they could relate in a healthy way is definitely worth pursuing.