How do we pump up the energy in here?

[MetroPunk]

any suggestions on how to keep OSI alive? Most people interested in these topics are interacting at GAIA, but i don't think we want to lose OSI as a possible "space" to grow Integral...

who knows, any suggestions?

[yadid]

Ah... the disintegration of integral... sad...
I think the only remedy is to plead with Wilber to publish a mind-blowing controversial book real soon. that might get the juices flowing again :c)

[MetroPunk]

but isn't the death of Wilberian Integralism key to the "real" growth of integral consciousness???
by any other name "integral" should signify a post-formal cognitive orientation which is sensitized to the mind, within the body, within nature as a whole? (beyond the cultural signs of any particular philosophy)...

integral is Real...
integralism is a passing fad...

whence the post-integral integral???

[marmalade]

Good question. I left here because the activity had become so slow and I believe the last thing I posted received no response. I went to Gaia for various reasons, but the Integral community was only part of it. Gaia has more diversity of viewpoints which is something I like. Integral is only one of my interests and so its hard for OSI to hold my attention. Sometimes integral doesn't feel very integral to me because of all that usually gets left out in the discussions.

As for integral as a whole, I suspect that integral thinking is becoming more common outside of integral proper. There is more competition out there. The problem with a forum that labels itself as integral is that it only attracts a narrow range of people, and too often the focus becomes too limited according to Wilber's model. The cutting edge integral discussions are probably happening on more general sites where integral types are forced to interact with a wider variety of viewpoints.

Integralism has become a part of our culture even if the term itself isn't used in the Wilberian sense. I agree with MetroPunk about the death of Wilberian Integralism. Its like New Thought which is a label that isn't often used outside of its original institutions. Few people know much about New Thought and yet its one of the main influences of our culture. The greatest compliment to any system is when its ideas are stolen without it getting credit. New Thought Christianity has slipped its way into the mainstream and even into the evangelical movement. Many people who have been influenced by New Thought might denounce it if they knew its origins.

If integral wants to influence society, it must go undercover. Become agents of integral change by not being attached to the term integral. If this site wants more activity, it should market itself differently, more openly in some way. Integral needs to meet people where they are. That is why the Gaia integral community is successful. Integral discussions sneak their way into threads even outside of the integral groups on Gaia. Gaia probably does more to introduce people to integral than any other site out there.

So, basically Gaia is a large diverse community and OSI is a small focused community. Small and focused are fine except that they have a tendency to die after a while. There are many advantages to being a part of a larger community that extends beyond your immediate group. You can do this even indirectly. If enough members of this group join other communities such as Gaia, they can link back to this group in their profiles, in their blogs, and in threads. I've linked to this group a number of times on Gaia. I also have linked to this group in other forums as well. When this place was first started I managed to attract a couple of people from an agnostic forum I belonged to. If you're committed to this group, then go out there and actively bring it attention.

Just some thoughts.

[M Alan Kazlev]

I myself don't identify "Integral" solely or primarily with Wilber and his school at all. Sri Aurobindo, Gebser, and others independently established these memes, which I call the Integral Paradigm. So did Equally people like Teilhard, Whitehead, and others, only they didnt use the label "integral". Wilber and Beck simply established the modern American-based movement, but this is just a subset of the larger paradigm.

Ironically, more diverse forums like "Gaia" might better represent the Integral paradigm than the more monopolar forums, even if they do also have a lot more generic Postmaterialism type stuff

[BrightAbyss~]

Hey Alan,

That's exactly why this place is called 'open source integral' - the idea was to go beyond (post) Wilberism and Aurobindo, and others, and approach something like a post-formal discussion forum.

It has not ended up as such, but OSI isn't exactly going anywhere. This place, high in traffic or not, will be here as long as 'ning' allows it, or as long as I am alive. So, lol, I hope some (eventually) may find it useful.

I too think the label 'integral' is near death - but the 'spirit', the emergent wisdom that is beyond the labels must continue to be cultivated, in my opinion...

[M Alan Kazlev]

hi Mike!

I don't think the label "Integral" is moribund. I do feel that Wilber has made it intro a buzz word, and if that buzzword is finished I will be very happy. In my essay "Redefining Integral" I tried to give ita wider definition, and as my ideas have developed since then I'll give it a different and new definition again in my book in progress

There may be a number of factors why people aren't active here or on Integral Naked etc: Maybe there are just no fresh new ideas coming in (i'm working on some in my book but not posting on the web); maybe people have gotten bored with the Wilberian stream of Integralism; maybe the economic recession or other things are distracting them

I still think your own Integral Praxis blog is the coolest thing going in the Integral scene, even if Steven has offered an intriguing critique of it and the "Integral movement".

For me (and ok this is just me) a big limitation of the modern IM is the lack of any authentic integral spirituality/yoga. By this i mean one or more (and preferably more) of the following

(a) Jnana, in the sense of transcendent insight, awakening,
(b) Bhakti, in the sense of Surrender to and Aspiration for the Supreme
(c) Transmutation of the subtle body, tantra, taoist alchemy, enlightenemnt of the cells.
(d) add whatever else you want

Now, I wouldn't expect anyone short of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother to master all of these, but there doesn't even seem to be much on even one. I guess Jnana would be the easiest, because that's nonduality, and Wilber is into advaito-buddhism, that particular form of Westernised nonduality. Then you have people like A. H. Almaas etc. But there just doesn't seem to be much of even this in the IM at present. By jnana i mean real jnana, like what Ramana or Nityananda taught, not teh watered down pop guru approach

With transformation of the subtle body, i think Jorge Ferrer wrote something on this for Frank's site, but even there he missed the point of what Sri Aurobindo was saying; it came across as pretty much Esalen Human Potential / New Age / Rajneeshi (ok I need to read it again, i may be being completely unfair).

While bhakti, well, forget it! Westerners have a problem with this, they confuse it with exoteric religion. Also bhakti is the single most effectiove technique there is for transforming the lower nature and going beyond the limiots of the relative ego. So people with big egos may find it difficult (i used to have, perhaps still do have, a big ego, so it took me many many years before i could accept it or practice it)

So for me, Integral is first and formost a spiritual path. Perhaps others here have a very differnet approach. And that's good too, because that's the nature of Integral; there are as many paths as there are Integralists. But without any strong spiritual center, there is nothing to sustain the movement. I always felt about Wilber's presentation that it was unbalanced towards the mental. I get the impression Wilber is belatedly trying to rectify this, with his ILP and 2nd person approach to God. So it's a start.

The Integral paradigm as it is developed at present is fine with theory, and also has good middle management appliactions (perhaps owing to Don Beck's contribution), and has some fascinating academic potential via the work of Sean Esbjörn-Hargens.

But there is no really transformative spiritual gnosis, nothing that corresponds to a yogic path or sadhana, of the sort taught by authentic Enlightenened beings like Sri Aurobindo and the Mother, Ramana Maharshi, or Yogi Ramsuratkumar. Sure Wilber's ILP is a start, and then there's Murphy & Leonard's ITP which i don't know anything about so can't really judge. With ILP it is very holistic etc, but put it next to Sri Aurobindo's Synthesis of Yoga and you immediately see a vast difference. Spirituality, sadhana, yoga, gnosis, bhakti, total transcendence of teh ego, profound transpersonal and integrally enlightened states that Sri Aurobindo discusses, involves a really radical transformation of the entire being. That's what i mean by Integral Yoga, Integral Spirituality.

That's why I want to ground the Integral Paradigm in Sri Aurobindo's work first and foremost (while not excluding other aspects). Not in a sense of everyone being religious and fundamentalistr, which is really off-putting. But from a perspective informed by, but not limited to, in fact going beyond, the insights of modernity.

imho without this sort of intense spiritual core (spiritual, not religious), the IM is just another stream in the Translucent Revolution (Arjuna Ardagh) / Human potential / Developmental psychology paradigm. Sure, nothing wrong with that, it's all good. But as Steven says it can be a lot more radical, although i get the feeling his idea of radical and my idea of radical are very different ;-)

So I'll try to get my book finished soon, and not spend too much time on constant rewrites, and we'll see if it makes any impact on the Integral paradigm!

[Mike Redmer]

I completely agree. I was just telling c4chaos the other day that I think one of the things that seems to be missing in integral circles is a more concrete discussion of spiritual practice. It seems to be very vague generalizations. Is it that there is just so few actualized masters now days? Shouldn't we be getting better at waking up as a species? You know faster and deeper realization. I was just listening to a Shinzen Young youtube clip the other day where he was talking about how the techniques haven't changed much in many years and how this is quite tragic. I mean we don't use the same technology today that we did 1,000 yrs. ago for transportation or communication, why not try to evolve the techniques for waking up? The constant philosophizing about integral theory is very engaging and I think it's beneficial to keep pushing our understanding forward, but it seems not to have a solid foundation without deep practice. Which of coarse Integral Theory emphasizes, it's just I would love to see a more nuts and bolts approach to this area. Where are the contemporary masters like Sri Aurobindo or Ramana Maharshi? I would have to put Shinzen Young up there (though I think he would disagree) for his no nonsense approach to waking people up, as well as Daniel Ingram over at Dharma Overground for cutting through all the bullshit and getting to the actual meat of the mystical experience with his website. If you guys have any other recommendations, I would love to hear about any other mystics who are really pushing the envelope right now.

As far as this website I have just found it and I have been active in the "Integral" Community for the last couple years. So perhaps people just don't know about it. I'm very interested in discussing what does a worldview look like post-integral, so count me in on any discussions. I myself tend to be interested in spiritual practice and mystical "metaphysics" as topics for further exploration.

I also think using Google Wave would be a great idea for interaction.

One last thing. Where I'm from (Michigan) Integral theory is definitely not "fading out", as a matter of fact I doubt most people in my area have even heard of it. But it has provided me with great insight and really opened my eyes to a deeper reality. I plan to be open minded and grow and develop as much as I can for the benefit of the entire Kosmos. I do hope that the Integral Movement can solidify and possibly become more "mainstream" just so that people have access to a greater understanding of this strange predicament we call "life". Though I don't agree with everything that comes out of Integral and see what I perceive to be flaws in the execution, I also see how this movement is positively effecting people's lives and I find value in that.

Alan I'm interested in your book so let me know as soon as you have anything up on it. Thanks

[BrightAbyss~]

The greatest compliment to any system is when its ideas are stolen without it getting credit. New Thought Christianity has slipped its way into the mainstream and even into the evangelical movement. Many people who have been influenced by New Thought might denounce it if they knew its origins.

If integral wants to influence society, it must go undercover. Become agents of integral change by not being attached to the term integral. If this site wants more activity, it should market itself differently, more openly in some way. Integral needs to meet people where they are.

And I agree in part Marm. But I think "Integral" is still a baby - so we can't expect it to put on a suit and get a job just yet. LOL.

I think the 'integrally sensibility' (as post-formal cognition combined/linked with integrative discourse) needs time to develop and become more nuanced before it blends into the mainstream. Without the 'integral frame' (schemes, etc.) to support it, 'integral' cognition cannot fully realize (thus objectify) itself and operationalize within human belief systems.

Most of the great people involved in the Integral Subculture are NOT (in my not-so humble opinion) at the post-formal stage of development so only worship the "framework" without having the complexity of consciousness to truly understand it. They mistake the framework for the reality that it rationally recontructs.

And this is why we're calling for an Open Source verson of integral theorizing. What lies at the heart of the integral worldview? What is the kernal of truth that allows integral consciousness to emerge in our current wolrdspaces?

What is going on between us hominids - us crazy people interested in such a discourse?

?

[marmalade]

I really don't know what "integral" ultimatley is. I'm not one who will argue about they're being a one corect integral vision. I'm content to leave it open-ended because I personally have no agenda/goal I'm trying to achieve. I appreciate integral simply because I'm curious about many different things. I'm interested in how things correlate, and integral proper is one viewpoint of many that satisfies this side of me.

I think integral is doing just fine. I'm not sure its still a baby. I see signs of integral thinking in all aspects of society. I'm not interested in a particular theory or model, practice or ideal. The only problem I've seen with integral is people arguing that it has to be one particular way or another. I prefer to view integral as more of a social shift in attitude.

I realize a site like this (and some other integral sites) have their difficulties, but I wouldn't blame this on anything about integral per se. I've belonged to many forums. Its hard to get and keep a loyal following with an online community.

I must admit I'm not seeking enlightenment nor am I seeking to change the world. Obviously, I don't judge people who are seeking those things. My problem is that many people in the integral community do have their specific agendas and they're critical of those who don't share their agenda. I prefer people who hold their opinions lightly... which isn't something I've always seen practiced within the integral community.

I'm not very "integral" in comparison to the hard-core integral believers. I don't identify as an integralist. It doesn't actually matter to me what happens to the integral community as it existed in the past. I'll continue to look for open-minded curious folk whereever I find them.

I have hope for integral sites such as OSI, but I'm not interested in dedicating myself to integral. Even though I believe integral is way beyond being a baby, I do agree it has a long way to go. But thats true of any new movement. Integral will be around a long time and we won't see its full manifestation in our lifetime. My issue with new movements is that they tend to be ruled by a few evangelizing converts. In another century or so, integral will start hitting its stride.

[MetroPunk]

"integral" is two things as i see it: (and as mike points out)

1. a stage/wave/complexity of development
2. a language-game that attempts to codify and signify certain 'structures' within human lifeworlds and the social environments in which these develop.

thus: it is both a mode of consciousness & (as mike says) a "discourse/practice".

so this is why we see integral consciousness without the AQAL discourse, and we can seen people who are into the AQAL discourse without integral consciousness, but when the two are combined they are a potent realization of emergent forms of body, mind, environment and culture...

not dogmatically speaking...

maybe?

[Steven Nickeson]

I suspect that not a lot of energy is being pumped into this site because there is not a great deal of energy being pumped into, or through, the entire Integral scene. Review the situation:

--The I-I at Gaia pod is being held together by a few hold-overs from Integral Naked forum. There has been complaints that the pod is losing energy and participants and one of its stalwarts messaged me the other day that she could care less for the content, she just doesn't want to let go of the social interactions there. Few mention Wilber there at all, little mention of integral except as a generic and amorphous concept.

--There are only 4.5 regulars posting on Gaia's Integral Postmetaphysical Spirituality pod and it is less than a year old. (All but one of them think Wilber is a joke.)

--Open Integral Blog is dead in the water.

--Frank Visser's Integral World site publishes only a couple of essays a month, way down from 2003 and 2004. All of its stars like Mark Edwards and Andy Smith have been absent for months.

--One big Wilberismo pro and con forum, Lightmind, went off-line months ago.

--Integral Naked forums are dead in the water. In fact the entire Multiplex seems retrenched from what it was proclaiming itself to be in 2005, 2006. In a 2003 essay on Integral World Wilber mentioned that Integral University would be on-line in a matter of several months. Its beta version went to a test group in Spring 2005, most in the group dropped out. The site was launched a few months later, in 2006 I believe, with grandiose plans, but now its being pushed as a partner with a couple of small regular universities. I-I received a grant of over $1 million early in the decade. But in 2006 a regular on I-Naked accidentally let slip that the Institute was nearly $400,000 in debt. About that time it decided to set out a begging bowl in the form of a thing called Integral Life, a profit making site. The site went up with nothing but an almost blank home page and stayed under construction for months...at one point the domain was even up for sale. Now the beta has been launched. It seems to me like an overly pecuniary, dreary, micro-managed product, strangely void of energy for something so new.

--Bright Abyss's Integral Praxis is an interesting study: Since the end of August, 58 posts have gone up on the site and only three of them have drawn comments for a total of five comments. But in the right-hand side bar there are links to well over 50 "integral" sites. And this is where the action seems to be. The bulk of the sites belong to development oriented business consultants of the type that used to be called "efficiency experts"--how to make greater profits with less expense, and Care Givers and Change Agents. All of the are characterized by a moderate social democrat political ethos, a Spiritual but Not Religious religious affiliation, a noticeable crisis mentality that falls short of drama queen, and a cheerful optimism that almost hides a perpetual sense of alarm...these are the kind of people who always know that there is always something wrong with everything. And these are the kind of people I always like to avoid because they are the kind of folks who often say, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem," and other similarly incoherent cliches designed to get you and your money involved in their agendas. And I suspect that most soon face hard times because when the U.S. population is down to asking only Wal-Mart to supply their Xmas needs, not much will be feeding into the coffers of an "integrally-inspired" vision for social solutions.

I don't think Integral quite rates as a "movement."

I might be back with some ideas on why this is, but then again, maybe no.

[M Alan Kazlev]

Hi Steven

Some very insightful analysis!

However I notice that your list is mostly Wilberian. Even within the most restricted definitions of the Integral community, there are also the Beck spiral dynamic people, they even had or have some project going in the Middle East.

I do see the people influenced by the cluster of memes put forward by Ken Wilber, Don Beck (and SD in general), Andrew Cohen, Steve McIntosh, the contributers to Frank Visser's site, and bloggers who identify with the label "integral" (whether Wilberian (as in most cases) or not), as a movement. Beyond that I now use the term "Integral paradigm"

Going over your list, I don't feel as jaundiced about Integral Praxis as you do; it's probably the most vibrant thing going in the Integral Community. But sure a lot of material there is limited

Gaia - a lot of the community I was in contact with there during the Zaadz period seems to have dissappeared. Or maybe I should post comments on other people's blogs and forums, rather than wait for them to comment on mine. But i also wonder if, with the departure of Brian Johnson and then ~C4Chaos, it lost some of its impetus.

Frank Visser - Integral World, I actually think it is good that there are new people posting. It brings in some freshness. Personally I am bored with Wilber commentary and Wilber criticism. Maybe Mark Edwards and Andy Smith feel the same, and that's why they no longer post there. I mean how much more can you say about Wilber? Frank's a great guy but I now find his blog repitious; it would be good if he could move beyond Wilberism.

To your very interesting list I would also add (as "failed" "Integral" Projects) Laurence Wollersheim & co's Integrative Spirituality website http://www.integrativespirituality.org/ This is a huge site with too much to read and absorb. It was obviously originally intended as a community portal but this doidnt happen. I posted something on the community forum more than a week ago, still no response (and no other posts). But I'll see what happens. They send out newsletters once a month or so. They don't reply to email (whereas Wilber people like Robb Smith do). Apparently they have a yatcht moored in San Franscisco bay which is their mobile center.

Andrew Cohen and the What is Enlightenment?/EnlightenNext crew represent another stream, although whether it is growing or declining I don't know. I find their magazine quite informative in places, irritating in others. It's been going for a number of years now; it is even in my local newsagency, and sometimes I'll buy an issue if it grabs me. Actuallty I find some of the ads more interesting then some of the articles (because they sometimes refer to groups I'd never heard of). It is a pity that Cohen insists on adopting the "Enlightened Guru" role as he is no Enlightened Being; personally i don't understand how anyone could follow (be a devotee of, whatever) a guy like that. If he were to simply present himself as "first among equals" with his group, I would have no problems. It may be that some Westerners have a sort of spiritual narcissism and need to present themselves as Enlightened Teachers or other inflated claims.

So in short, by looking for an online forum-type community you are looking in the wrong place. I predict the Integral Movement / Paradigm will continue to emerge in the blogosphere and the web.